John Anthony West, Egyptologist, author, lecturer, guide and a pioneer of Sphinx water erosion hypothesis, will answer your questions on the GrahamHancock.com messageboards.
See his website at http://www.jawest.net/.
To learn about John's concerted efforts to re-invigorate his long-dormant, 501c3 non-profit Ancient Wisdom Foundation, please see: http://www.ancientwisdomfoundation.org/
Enjoy the Q&A! And if you would like to request anyone in particular to be a GHMB Community Interview subject, please put your name suggestion in the Name Suggestions thread.
i. Here is something I've been wanting to quiz you on for a wee while:
I've heard you refer to Democracy as one of the Four Horseman of the
Apocalypse. Could you explain why you think Democracy is so dangerous,
and what you would personally replace it with? I'm certainly no fan of
the current democratic model in the West (which no longer seems fit
for purpose, and increasingly resembles an open sewer), but perhaps
Churchill's famous quote is something to keep in mind:
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." (Source)
ii. You have repeatedly referred to the Sphinx as being "vastly" old. Certainly older than Schoch's original interpretation of the Sphinx data. Could you possibly narrow that down for me, and give me your own take on the civilisation that originally carved it? For example, do you think they possessed technology that equalled/surpassed our own? Were they more spiritually advanced?
i) Not “four Horsemen”, Four Cowboys. One of these days I’ll get around to a substantial PhoenixFire episode explaining this point in some depth. Here, a few bytes will have to suffice:
Would you eat in a restaurant where the dishwashers not only elect the chef but tell him what (and even how) to cook? Would you bet on a football team where the hotdog vendors elect the coach and pick the players? I wouldn’t … although, that said, the dishwashers in the good restaurant and the attentive hotdog vendors in a professional stadium both know a lot more about their respective environments and its needs than today’s benumbed, hoodwinked and witless general public knows about their own society.
Moreover, what we have today is in no sense a democracy! Apropos, here’s a delightful, serendipitous headline from today’s NY Times to put it into proper perspective:
“For Big Givers, Cash and Clout Arrive Together Lobbyists, corporate executives, trade associations and donors exploit legal loopholes, making each party's quadrennial convention a gathering of money and influence unrivaled in politics.” Got it? In today’s world, that’s what’s called “ Democracy” . And it has never been much different. I could (and will!) go on at some length on this in due course.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Sounds clever, but it is short-sighted. Again, in a byte: A political tyranny or corrupt monarchy or repressive religious theocracy are not the only alternatives to a compromised democracy, which implicitly, Churchill is taking for granted. That is all Churchill knew about. Churchill knew nothing about Ancient Egypt for example (and would have understood little had he been acquainted with it.) When a civilization lasts 3000 years, you can be pretty sure they’ve got something right! Right?
ii) Schoch is now pretty much convinced, and admits that his conservative estimate is much too conservative. For astronomical/astrological reasons (Sphinx as age of Leo marker) combined with the pre-dynastic reigns described on the Palermo Stone and Turn Papyrus + the severity of the weathering on the enclosure walls, I’m inclined to go, until proved otherwise, with ca. 36,000 BC – which is what the Palermo Stone/Turin Papyrus compute to. As with all these things, it’s complicated.
"People will pay good money to be told by a religious authority figure that they will live forever." - Brad Warner
“Yeah, and they will pay much more depreciated money to be told by secular authority figures that their lives, (however long or short) are completely meaningless and that we live in an “advanced civilization” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary” -- John Anthony West
I do not know who Brad Warner is, but feel little compunction to find out.
How did the 4th dynasty Egyptians get the granite roofing beams all the way from Aswan and up into the King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid? Where was the quarry for the somewhat larger limestone blocks in Khafre's Valley Temple?
Author: Archae Solenhofen
Sorry Archae, but I know from long experience that it is futile to engage the official Phorum Herr Quibblemeister at any level of intelligent discussion. So I recuse myself. But since you, who have never been to Egypt, evidently have definitive answers for every question that baffles scholars and scientists from a variety of disciplines, I will leave it to you to provide suitably “official” answers to those questions.
Btw, Archae, we are at long last actively working to revive my long-slumbering Ancient Wisdom Foundation and put together the finance for our endlessly delayed but long-planned geo-panel together to go to Egypt and, with luck, settle the question of the putative water weathering once and for all. If/when it all happens I will be extending an invitation to you to participate in the opposing side. With Zahi out of the picture (at least for the moment) I do not know who will be in charge of assembling that opposing group, but, if your credentials merit inclusion, you will be receiving an invitation.
I would ask what are your thoughts about the Dynastic Race (full post and explanation here) and their level of influence and do you see them as the instigators of pyramid building in Egypt, or to the point, the Giza complex? Also, the fact G3 does incorporate palace facade architecture, a style even by mainstream dating had been abandoned for almost 200yrs-is it possible this is telling evidence that G3 is potentially much older thereby giving a more likely date for the rest of Giza? One more if you can, but do you agree with Emery and if so what are your thoughts about where they might have come from?
Good but very complicated questions, without really definitive answers, and without digging back into Emery et al, I am not going to be able to answer very satisfactorily point by point.
Here are some observations, at least indirectly relevant.
Even the mainstream accepts a Giza masterplan at the onset for the entire complex. Since no one has been able to seriously impugn the Sphinx water weathering hypothesis, we believe that whenever the Sphinx was carved, major constructions, not necessarily pyramids, were also built on the sites of present pyramids.
The Khafre pyramid employs two radically different styles of masonry (which ALWAYS means two different periods of construction). The lower courses of the NE corner are made of cyclopean blocks of the order of the core masonry of the Sphinx Valley Temple, with the much less refined and smaller blocks typical of the OK piled on top. Even huger blocks are employed in the surrounding paving blocks. The evidence at Menkaure is less unchallengeable, but it’s there.
The Red Pyramid of Dahshur is built OVER a pre-existing, obviously weathered, megalithic-style chamber (akin to Newgrange), absurdly termed a “plundered tomb chamber” by the quackademic community. What this means is that there was an advanced megalithic aspect to pre-or-proto or even earlier Egypt. This is reinforced by the astronomically oriented megalithic stone circle at Nabta Playa, officially dated to ca. 6000 BC. Throw in 10,000 BC Goebekli Tepe and the recently discovered 8000 BC ultra-refined obsidian bracelet found in Turkey and it becomes clear that the mainstream picture developed by Emery et al, has to be totally rewritten. But that’s all that’s clear. Everything else is up for grabs.
Re: “Period of influence” I’m not convinced there was even a “Dynastic Race”. A recent, wonderful exhibit, “The Dawn of Egyptian Art” at the Metropolitan Museum in NY was replete with small but extremely sophisticated works including all manner of motifs that would subsequently be associated with the ‘gods” of Dynastic Egypt, crocodiles, hippos, etc. These are not just “river animals” as the explanatory cards on the exhibits claim, but rather they are the “gods” of Egypt, which are cosmic principles. In other words, they know, back then, scientifically, what they’re talking about. And the entire scenario has to be re-thought.
Re: Early dynastic palace motif. That may not show up after 3rd Dyn in architecture but it remains a symbolic fixture throughout the 3000 years of Dynastic Egypt (Serekh motif). The Southern wall of the so-called Tomb of Khentkaus (4th Dyn) was never re-faced as was the rest of this peculiar formation, but the vestiges of the palace motif are still visible on the southern face. Elsewhere on Khentkaus, there is Sphinx-style water weathering.
i) First item for attention: When walking through a temple and seeing the bas-reliefs carved into the stone, I am curious about the persons doing the carving. I understand following a strict canon but what I am not sure about is whether or not the individual who actually performed the carving understood what they were carving into the stone. In other words, is the mason also a temple priest? An initiate? Was the mason a regular Joe just carving what the priest told him to carve? It gets more interesting as we move into the sanctuaries where only the high priests would have been permitted and who would have had access to this knowledge before the temple is consecrated. If you can expand on this, I would eagerly tune in.
ii) If the rulers prior to the dynastic rulers were referred to as "Shemsu Hor" to mean "followers" or "companions of Horus", this requires a Horus. Is this Horus in the same context as the son of Osiris and Isis, or is Horus in this context referring to something else?
i) There’s no way to know for sure. My guess would be that they have proven themselves accomplished artisans, and the potential masters among them would be on an initiatic path. The rest is up to them. Everything works that way.
ii) Horus is the Principle of the Return to the Source, and that, by whatever name, has probably been around since the onset of humanity.
1. What evidence are you utilizing to push back the dating of the
Sphinx and The Great Pyramid back another precessional cycle?
2. Are you a supporter of the Giza Power Plant theory?
3. How did you and Gerald Celente meet?
1) The water weathering hypothesis. If that can’t be overturned, the Sphinx, almost unarguably the greatest sculpture on earth, has to date from a time when there is not even supposed to be civilization.
2) Not quite. I am certain it is an “energy” structure of some sort, it is a “device”, but I do not think that energy is electricity. I think Chris Dunn doesn’t believe that anymore either.
3) In a local Tai Chi class.
Re: Joe Rogan Experience podcast with John Anthony West
Very interesting. JA West has reached several of the same conclusions I have. Most notably is that they did have a different science than ours. Indeed, once this is seen it really becomes rather obvious that it was simply impossible for man to lift himself out of the caves and build the pyramids using superstition, magic, and religion. It wasn't even possible to do this with reason, logic, mathematics, and philosophy. It would have required a means of gathering knowledge of nature; it required science.
JAW: what is called “reason’ is usually no more than the rationalization, by the emotionally retarded, spiritually dyslexic and philosophically depraved, of their own inner emptiness. Mathematics is another matter.
This is so obvious to many of us but somehow it seems to be completely invisible to those who believe in the Egyptological paradigm.
JAW: see above. That’s who they are.
How can this be so invisible to archaeologists, historians, and egyptologists? Is it mere confirmation bias?
See above. They don’t, can’t know any better … unless they go through an NLE (Near Life Experience).
Do you believe debunking of any of the fundamental assumptions of Egyptology will directly lead to the collapse of the paradigm or will it require proof of some new paradigm?
JAW: We have the proof already. We have had it for decades. The debunkery will, if successful, discredit them in the eyes of anyone capable of understanding evidence ... and with a bit of luck it will make their lives seriously uncomfortable; ideally destroy their livelihoods. I would personally enjoy that.
You seem to have somehow "parted" with Schwaler DeLubitz after the Serpent in the Sky; if so, why?
Interesting observation … but not at all! I just do not have anything much to add, or elaborate upon. To better understand Schwaller, read Schwaller. The Sphinx theory is based upon an observation made by Schwaller but that he seems not have recognized for its huge implications. I am pleased to have carried that further.
I have been interested in your Great Work (pun haha) for quite some years now. I first saw your Magical Egypt series on video.google, and loved it so much that I got the entire series purchased for my birthday. Now my question may seem foolish or it may not. I can't recall you presenting your own Theory or Opinion on *how* the Great Pyramid(s) of Giza were constructed. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong and looked over where it was said how John believes the Great Pyramid was constructed.
JAW: No, I don’t know either, but I put forward four possibilities, not necessarily mutually exclusive:
1 a genius application of primitive technology that we can’t do or even imagine.
2. a sophisticated technology that we can’t recognize – things that we think are religious objects are really technology.
3. a “soft” technology; people at a higher level of consciousness than ourselves capable of achieving things "magic" to us but "technology" to them.
4. Aliens dunnit.
I like some combination of 1 & 3. But cannot prove anything.
So my question is -
1) How was The Great Pyramid Built?
JAW: dunno. See above.
2) Could it be that the Pyramids also Date Back to the same time as the Sphinx? (Perhaps that accounts to as why the Casing Stones were removed? Perhaps they showed Water Weathering before they were removed.)
Yes. See my response to Loki74 (Question 1)
And 3) What was/is the ultimate purpose of The Great Pyramid?
JAW: dunno. And as far as I know no one else does either. A typically stupid-ass National Pornographic or Discovery docu some years back called them (wink,wink,nod,nod) “immortality machines”. I think that’s exactly what they were but I have no idea how it was supposed to happen.
On my Egypt trips we rent the pyramid for a private two hour meditation session inside the King’s Chamber and most people get an inkling, even if it cannot be articulated, of what it’s for. To the Quackademics, of course, all that’s rubbish, but then they do not know what it is to meditate.
I've followed a great deal of your work. Thanks.
I've run into Mr. Celente before and believe he has a realistic perspective of many modern problems.
1) I read at one time that you were attending or leading a conference at Giza back in March of '08 or '09 to discuss "hydraulic theories" related to the Sphinx and pyramids but never heard what came of it. Can you shed some light on it?
2) Do you follow or support Gigal's work?
3) What is your opinion on the quality and appropriateness of current mainstream research and findings?
4) Do you believe it's likely that there will be any definitive answers to any basic questions in your lifetime?
1) Sorry but I have no recollection of that. What is certain is that it didn’t happen, anyway, not with me involved.
2) Sorry. Not familiar with it. She’s on one of my lists, but I can’t recall pursuing it.
3) 90% of it is totally meaningless and stupid. That other 10% is significant and promising, though none of it is really comprehending – from a Symbolist point of view, at any rate. But often it’s possible to see new ork and know that it must be “Schwallerized” – which is, in fact, what Schwaller himself did. Without all that meticulous, if largely mindless, fact-gathering, it couldn’t happen
4) Since I think I’m around for quite a while still, so maybe. If not, others will carry on the quest.
1) You stated on the JRE that you drank Ayahuasca. How was it?
2) What did it do for you?
3) Have you changed since drinking it?
4) On the JRE you also said that you're working with Gerald Celente. What do you personally foresee in the upcoming years for our civilization?
5) If you foresee collapse, how are you personally preparing for it?
6) And does the theory of an ancient Lost Civilization of high-technology impact how you may be preparing for the end of this one?
1) Ferocious, unsettling, cathartic. I didn’t get the visions.
2) Hard to say. Emotionally enormously valuable. Came to understand emotionally a lot that I already knew intellectually, but couldn’t actually “feel”… and therefore couldn’t deal with.
3) Not so much changed, rather anchored in a certain sense. Impossible to describe.
4) Nothing good in the usual sense, almost certainly horrible in the usual sense … but necessary and ineluctable. Since what we live in the midst of is not “civilization” in any meaningful sense of that word. I call it “shiny barbarism.” And for anything to change, everything must change. For the seed to sprout, the husk must crack and dissolve. There is no other way, as far as I know.
5) I do foresee collapse. At 80, my priorities are different than at 25. I live in a physically blessed place in the wilderness that I love; I loathe our government, have little respect for most of my fellow Americans, but my family is here and so am I. I like to think that I’ll know a bit before they come after me (which they might, working with Celente as I do) and get the hell out in time. Any developed and operational tyranny generally goes after the artists and the intellectuals almost before anyone else. And that’s me! So we shall see.
6) No. I believe (cannot prove) that their high technology was an internal faculty, consciousness-power, as it were. The realization that it was not always the lunatic asylum it now is, can make a real difference to the way people live their lives. I get a lot of emails to that effect. I do my bit to change the paradigm, but the personal preparation, such as it is, is internal.
You have written Serpent In The Sky. Some time ago I started a tread about the meaning of the symbol `Serpent`… known from many ancient civilizations… also known from the Pharaonic head ornament.
I got all kind of suggestions. My conclusion was therefor that the serpent symbol is not understood as symbol.
What is your interpretation of that symbol?
JAW: No it is understood very well. But it is exceedingly complex and one interpretation does not necessarily discount another interpretation. The long chapter on the serpent in Serpent in the Sky explores it from certain angles, other interpretations explore it from others. It’s not too difficult to separate the sensible interpretations from the silly ones. The basic significance is that it represents the cosmic principle of “polarity” in all of its innumerable manifestations.
First off, thanks for your continued efforts to free more and more people from the grip of the "quackademics."
The following background information is provided for some needed weight to my simple two-folded question:
The acceleration of our global consciousness has led humanity to some exciting, and all be it frightening, realizations and theories concerning the true nature of reality. In the past, you have been pessimistic as to our sustainability, given the current priorities of global leaders. Yet, many believe we are riding an extrapolating wave of consciousness which will all but "root out" the old paradigm of unsustainable societies.
My question is as follows:
1) Despite humanity's lack of widespread access to magical knowledge, could an accelerated global consciousness herald in an unforeseen Golden Age?
2) And would a catastrophic global event be necessary for such a drastic change in thinking?
1) Sure it could. I personally do not think things work that way ... but I am hardly an authority on such matters.
2) I am much more inclined to see it that way. An alcoholic or a junkie has to hit rock bottom before there’s even a chance of recovery, and then it’s excruciating. This is a society of junkies, addicted to life-threatening ideas: Money as God, Success, Progress – Theo-Economy and Meta-finance.
Hello John Anthony,
First of all, thanks for your fantastic work and new approach to Ancient Egypt. It has been a great inspiration for me, allowing me to go beyond my academic education in archaeology and opening my mind to other scientific scenarios.
I’ve got two subjects to discuss:
1) Given that the Great Sphinx and the adjacent temples show typical marks of water erosion, they should have the same chronology. So, do you think that all the main monuments in the Giza plateau -including the three great pyramids- should be dated in a supposed antediluvian time (before around 10000 BC)? Have you got any trace of this supposed water erosion on the pyramids? Regarding this point, what’s your opinion about the C-14 datings made on the pyramids in the 80’s. Do you think they might be completely wrong?
2) If the ancient Egyptians recorded their history with accuracy (following the known sources: Manetho, Canon of Turin, Palermo stone, Abydos list, etc.), then the so-called gods, half-gods, heroes, etc could have been real people, not myths. In your opinion, where’s the origin of these ancient god-pharaos who could live for hundreds of years? I know the theory of an Atlantean origin, but how could we prove it?
3) Do you know the work of the French matemathician Albert Slosman on this matter?
Author: Titus Livius
1) Evidence yes, but not necessarily water erosion on the pyramids –rather radically different styles of construction. Water weathering elsewhere.
2) we can’t.
3) I’m just now reading Slosman, oddly enough. I’m much unconvinced. The “gods” are cosmic principles, not human beings, which is not to say that human beings did not achieve “divine” stature through their own inner work … hence their “mystical” names. That was the basis of the entire 3000 years of dynastic Egyptian civilization. But it’s probably impossible to extricate the history (if there is any) from the cosmology.
Did the ancient Egyptians venture to South America? :)
i) Have you heard of Klaus Dona and his interview with Project Avalon Bill Ryan? Klaus Dona reveals Egyptian like artifacts found in Ecuador; 12,000 years ago or more!
ii) Are these the artifacts left behind from the Egyptian/South American contact? How else did a ceramic cobra end up in Ecuador where there are none? Or cocaine with a mummy?
ii) The cocaine would seem to be a clincher. I’ve not seen the cobra and do not know its provenance so can’t comment.
1) How would you explain this:
2) Do you have any comment, viz. the Petrie theory of Egyptian origins? as in here are two artificial stone-making societies....how likely is it they had no contact with one another......(it could also be argued their creation myths are quite similar as well)?
NB full question here
1) I do not understand what I am supposed to understand from these pics.
I’m in no position to be able to judge from photos what is poured and what is quarried, but Schoch and I have looked into the original Davidovits theory in detail and find it without merit. Let’s face it: when it’s simple enough to quarry the stone you need, why pour it, which, technologically, is no less onerous?
And if they did pour it, what does that suggest?
2) I’m convinced that creation myths are universal, scientific in the true sense of that word, and vastly ancient. Poured concrete, true or not, is irrelevant to the grand doctrine.
Re: origins. Goebekli Tepe, Nabta Playa, the recent Turkish obsidian bracelet (ca. 8000 BC) and other pieces of solid evidence make it clear that theories put forth by Petrie, et al, must be totally rethought. It’s not their fault. The evidence had not yet been discovered or (as with the Sphinx) correctly interpreted.
1) I'm wondering if you can speak to how the discovery of gobleki tepe has affected your research and if it has effectively proven the existence of a civilization capable of constructing the sphinx 12000 years ago?
2) To your knowledge has anyone decoded any sacred geometry at gobleki tepe?
3) Any representations of the flower of life symbol?
1) Exactly that. It proves what we’ve been saying all along, but couldn’t quite prove in those terms.
2) No, but I’ll bet it’s there.
3) No, but I don’t believe this is as significant as some people think it is. I am pretty sure it’s not ancient Egyptian, but don’t know where it comes from. Pretty simple hexagonal geometry,
1) Concerning the famous quarryman's grafitti in the highest so-called relieving chamber inside the GP, after all the various theories concerning how such grafitti could have been misinterpreted, drawn at a later date or even forged at some time in the distant past and - given that such a large weight is placed on this grafitti by proponents of Khufu as the builder and ultimate subject of internment in this great structure -
Do you feel that any further evidence has come to light or that you have been made aware of that could give creedence to the grafitti having been legitimately placed there by workman at the time of the pyramids construction?
2) I speak of course of the red dye being continued inside the join where it is hidden by the neighboring block and therefor impossible to have been laid down after the blocks placement.
1) Jaw: Hsving been up there on numerous occasions, I am 100% convinced they are legitimate, and reference Khufu.
That said, since the evidence is pretty much incontestable that the Khafre pyramid shows different styles, and therefore periods, of construction, this applies to the Gt Pyramid as well. (We’re pretty sure we can prove this, but not here. It’s complicated.)
2) That and much else besides. Arguments to the contrary are put forth by people who have not been up there and who do not know what the hell they are talking about.
1) Hello JAW- Please impart to us all how you come to entertain the notion that we are still in the trenches of the Kali Yuga, still trying to crawl out of the dark ages. Are you making obvious observations (everything we touch we break) or are you fixing time according to someone's insight other than Paramahansa Yogananda, which according to his teacher whom transmitted his slant in "The Holy Science" we are now in the beginning of the Dwapara Yuga, the "atomic" age.
2) And now into the next question on macro-evolution (swimming in the yuga pool plucks you straight out of the Darwinian waters, no?): further comments on evolution? I've always delighted in hearing your expressed sentiments on the topic, although it has never been of sole focus.
Author: Absolutely Chloe
1) Hello Absolutely. This is, of course, not science in the usual sense, but science in the usual sense is a seriously compromised and constricted discipline and not to be trusted for anything but facts … which, without context, are meaningless. I don’t know, anyway can’t prove, where we’re heading but my sense is that we are on the cusp of a possible breakthrough, or possible cataclysm. But nothing in between.
2) too complex for this phorum .. but when we get around to it, it will be fun! High on the West/Schoch to-do list is the “definitive” Anti-Darwin (not anti-Evolution, mind you, but Anti-Darwin) book
OK, I'll ask this question directly.
1) Would the concept that the ancients used a natural language based on 40,000 years of observation (science) and progress be consistent with your idea that they were very wise?
2) Of course this presupposes that this language was somehow lost in the mists of time and knowledge of it forgotten.
1) yes, but next to impossible to “prove”... not that that kind of proof is essential to understanding, or wisdom.
2) Yes, more or less, depending upon satisfactorily defining one’s terms, which is not easily done. E.g. We can’t, wouldn’t, and wouldn’t even dream of building a pyramid again or a Temple of Luxor, but they did, and they had their reasons.
hello john for the record did the ancient Egyptians have a knowledge of the chakra system?
Author: michael seabrook
JAW: Not formally, but there’s a lot of evidence that says they had that knowledge but expressed it differently (e.g., diadem worn by the pharaoh with serpent at the “third eye”, cobra façade in Sakkara (riaen kundalini) and much else besides.
Firstly, thank you for your revolutionary work and for being a tireless advocate of the high wisdom of the ancients. I have a few questions for you.
1) Is it possible that "Punt" was a reference to the Indus Valley civilization?
2) What could have led to the cranio-facial and genetic linkages between the pre-dynastic Egyptians and the Dravidians of India?
3) There are stark similarities between the Theban triad and the Jagannath triad of India, as well as the Opet festival and the Jagannath Rath Yatra. What is your opinion on this matter, if any?
4) My own research has led me to the conclusion that the Kali Yuga is ending in 2025 CE. Do you have any specific date in mind?
Author: Bibhu Dev Misra
1) I see no reason to dispute the Somalia/Ethopia theory.
2) I have no idea. Never heard that before. Hardly impossible. What evidence?
3) There are similarities of this sort all over the world. I’m inclined to think there’s a common global source in the very distant past that is retained when the “Atlantean” civilization is destroyed. But it’s also possible that all along there were contacts between geographically widely separated societies.
4) No, but I do think there’s a big change in the air. It could go either way: a flowering of higher consciousness, a reconnection with the Source, a Renaissance … or a descent into chaos and bestiality. Given the psychopaths and sociopaths we call our “leaders” and the unprincipled, greedy scum who fund and control them, to imagine the clock will suddenly strike Aquarius and we all will be brothers again, is nothing short of suicidal naivete. Nevertheless, when ideas change everything changes. A Renaissance cannot be dismissed as a possibility
Dedicated Servers and Cloud Servers by Gigenet. Invert Colour Scheme / Default